UtahPhotojournalism.com is in a constant state of evolution. The site goes through periods that are defined by the regular posters of their time. People come and go. There are regulars who stop posting and some come back months later. One person even asked to have their account deleted. But through it all, it’s obvious that everyone reads the site. The traffic is constant and the people I run into in the field are often talking about something they saw here.
Look at the photos in the Random Excellence section along the right sidebar, or start going through the archives and you’ll realize the site is a treasure. The archive of material we’ve built up, whether it’s great work or photos of ourselves on assignment documenting our communities, is priceless. And we get a lot of traffic. Just yesterday, Chris Detrick’s re-working of a Scott Sommerdorf photo from May 2011 had about 1,000 views. Go figure.
Still, there are so many things that go un-posted here. There are so many shooters who don’t post. They’re putting amazing work on facebook or tumblr or twitter, but not here.
I’m a regular poster but there are many times I don’t post. My reasons for not posting are usually that I feel my work isn’t good enough to share or I get busy and it doesn’t happen. Hey, that’s life, right?
Those are my reasons. What are yours? You can pick up to three answers, and it is anonymous…
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“You’re only as good as your one-coin posts” -Utah PJ Confucius
True to Utah fashion I’d like the bare my testimony of this site.
I’ve learned heaps from it, I’ve gained friends through it and it’s a community that I mention frequently.
Also, I did find out about my current job at The Spectrum though this site.
So that’s cool. . .
We have someone that found a job through this site… That is probably the best endorsement I can think of.
Keep it coming people. Share the love and imagery!
The one-coining is a complete joke and it annoys the hell out of me to see people do it. If the ones that aren’t participating in the site are the ones that one-coin, then just stay off. People like Trevor and I love this stuff. The whole Macally thing also got really old. I post on this site (‘ish) put “voted” with not getting feedback. I don’t think my stuff is good enough yet to post JUST to post and share, but I do it despite the one-coining and lack of responses because, oddly enough, on the sidelines and in press areas is where I normally get the feedback I was hoping to get on here. Still got some, but I think using the site the way it’s intended would improve the quality of it.
Having said that, this all comes from the perspective of a shooter who is not “there” yet, and I get the feeling that the good majority of the people who actively visit this site (though not posting/commenting) ARE in fact the ones that are more or less “there” and are the full-time working professionals. I see a lot of posts that get no coins and no comments. While it’s partly on the shooter for not asking for feedback or anything (myself included) I am almost inclined to put it on the full-time staffers that come to the site to initiate the participation from others on the posts. I think if that starts to happen more, more people will post (and participate), regardless of whether it’s any of the options of this poll. While I’m technically one of the full-timers, pretty much everyone on here knows where I’m at with my shooting, that I have a long way to go.
My two cents at least…
I paid $1.50 for this $.02, so please read…
The community has a problem, not the blog. Utah visual story tellers need an open forum in which to interact with each other and hone the craft. A home for traditional dialog. It needs to be welcome to all: newb, pro, freelancer, full-time, part-time, artist, etc. All need to be on equal footing. It needs to be backstage, not front and center under the hot-lights. Contributors need to feel failure is okay. That is something we don’t have now. Finally, the experts need to get busy teaching the new kids the One True Path™.
It will fail when any one of the following becomes true:
* Honesty dies.
* Fear outweighs hope.
* No one says anything. No one cares. Silence is death. Apathy is …
* The newest newb and the pro’est pro don’t respect each other.
A community is strong if it is spicy. Put some cayenne pepper in that pot.
This is how the “one coin” problem needs to be solved: Change the coin system to “one coin max” or “no coins.” If you don’t like a photograph then have the courtesy to leave a comment and explain why. The coin system as it is currently implemented seems 100% useless to a visual communicator.
Great discussion here, all around. On the coin system – any change made to it needs to keep intact the ratings we’ve built up over three years. Maybe it’s as simple as disabling the visibility of the average vote and just showing total coins per post. Something to think about
Ryan is right: When there is no discourse, a community will shrivel up.
Patrick is right: One coining is a fact of life. People who do that are out there – and while the act of one coining is petty and mean-spirited, those things are a part of life. There will always be those who too harshly chime in on your work. If you let them stop you, it’s not their fault – its yours.
Michael is right: Macally killed it a bit. ‘Was fun for a while, but it became tedious and too insider-y.
And that brings us to this thought: Cliques will kill a community. Or – fracture it – which might be where we are now. If this site is to reflect us as a community – lets BE a community in the best sense of that word. Support and respect each other.
oh, and Trent is VERY right. RANDOM EXCELLENCE is a Jewel. Spend any time at all looking through what catches your eye in Random Excellence, and you’ll get the best sense of the great work that we are all doing, and the respect you will have for this community will get to where it should be. Just like in the biz – THE WORK is what it is ultimately all about. I can drivel on all I want here, but the answer is in the photos.
I only know a few people among this “community” of professionals. I was intimidated by them when I was learning photography (not recommending teaching yourself by any means) while still a reporter at the D’ News. I’m still intimidated by this group. But I enjoy seeing what some of you are doing – sometimes I learn something, other times I’m inspired by what I see. I’m envious of the close-knit group that I get to peek in on through this site. Many of you have enormous talent, and I’d like to see more of your artistry and skill. As I continue to improve and gain confidence, perhaps I’ll post more …
Credit to you Stephen for continuing to post. Groups of photographers are intimidating everywhere. I shot the Utah football game last night in Arizona and met some very friendly shooters among the frosty guys who don’t acknowledge anyone they don’t know. Everywhere I’ve been it seems shooters are stand-offishing until they get to know you…and it takes four or five times to break the ice.
Dunno, perhaps some of the other folks can comment here, but I’ve found that this community here in Utah is *far* more friendly than I’ve found elsewhere. The level of talent here has always impressed me and its been exiting to see folks get started here and then move out into the wider national and international communities. Hopefully they take some of the sense of community I’ve seen here with them.
Asking why is only important if you intend to do something about it. Otherwise, why ask?
According to the poll: 46% of respondents don’t post due to lack of feedback, or feeling their images are not good enough for the front page. The “too busy” votes likely come from people who feel confident in their photographic ability, but don’t see enough benefit to providing feedback. I believe this revels a disconnect between the skilled and unskilled visual storyteller. How do the two sides connect? The young eyes need feedback from someone who is competent so they can move from backstage to bright lights. That apparently isn’t happening. The circle is broken.
Everyone here seems friendly and nice. I don’t think there is an “asshole” problem. There is evidence suggesting a communication gap exists. What is the recipe for fixing it? I’m excited to find out.
Ryan pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Many of the problems currently can be attributed to the coin system. The coin rating indicates the perceived value of a submission. However, the voting itself is more of a popularity contest. Posts from younger photogs are geared toward seeking approval from the community because all the criticism they get back is the coin rating. Coins have become the substitute for criticism and discussion and are especially meaningless since you can vote as many times as you want, even on your own submissions. The coin system offers nothing of any value or meaning to the site. People realize this and probably won’t admit they care about coins, but they do because that’s the only form of feedback they get.
All of this is not to say that a voting system in general is bad. I know the coins aren’t intended to carry so much weight or replace discussion, but the fact that they do is sympomatic of a larger problem: The community is overly sensitive. It can be difficult to gauge the acceptable tone of discussion from post to post. Light-hearted/joke posts are common, but have also resulted in heated arguments. You might not think you crossed a line until you come back to an absolute shit-storm. Considering the community is made up of colleagues and co-workers, jobs can potentially be at stake. It’s not hard to figure out why people would rather remain anonymous by using coins.
That being said, I would like to see more pros using the site as their personal blog. Fewer outtakes and joke posts, more posts about assignments and approaches that worked or didn’t work and why. It may be a lot to ask when pros are already over-worked, but that kind of information could be even more valuable to younger photographers than criticism on submissions.
Lennie thinks Ryan nailed it. I think Lennie nailed it.
I know where I am with my own shooting. I know it’s not at the level of many of the people on here, but I still post anyway because it’s what I’m doing at the moment. The only way I’m going to “elevate my game” is by doing it, and pretty much any post I put on here I want feedback. Perhaps the tag system could be more effectively utilized? I don’t know. But I really like Lennie’s comment about seeing the pros using the site more. A large part of what I miss of my time staffed at The Tribune was seeing all ten photog’s work all day long. The greatest amount of growth I’ve made as a shooter was sitting at the desk (along with shooting in the off time). I would suspect that part of the reason why the pros don’t post more than they do is because they aren’t necessarily looking for feedback on their work (I could be wrong, obviously). But I would love to see the pros post more if for nothing else but the benefit of the non-pros. I’m not intimidated by being surrounded by amazing work, and I’ve learned not to compare myself to it, but I can sympathize with those that don’t post because they don’t feel their work is good enough to share for that reason. I like Lennie’s point about using the coins for reasons of anonymity as opposed to open discussion. I’ve seen posts that make me scratch my head, and I’m sure I’ve posted them as well. My guess is that this disconnect between the pros and the non-pros would be closed a bit if the feedback system were not open to the anonymity of the coin system. I like it because it’s a simple way to give props (i.e. Patricks sign-off, Micha and DJ’s wedding announcement, etc.) but I think the negatives of it outweigh the positives.
I don’t mind the outtakes and joke posts. In fact I really like them. Press food photos are just part of the story of being a photojournalist, and there are some really funny things along the way. I think the outtakes and behind-the-scenes type kind of enhance this sense of “community” found in the blog. I haven’t thought of the notion that there’s a disconnect between the less-experienced and the more-experienced on this blog until this poll/post and discussion. But I agree that there is.
Ryan- Good points. This blog changes all the time so we will come up with improvements and solutions to problems. Thanks for all of your input and keep it coming.
Lennie- You always give me great things to think about. You’re right about the coin system as it stands, but if people would be cool and not slam each other with 1-coins it would be killer. Of course, that probably won’t happen. Maybe I’m hanging onto the coins way too long.
Mangum- I think part of the reason for less participation from the pros is that in the current PJ climate, it’s hard to see the reward for posting. A new job, a raise, anything? Unlikely. There are rewards to posting here, many rewards, but the most important reason to post is to be a part of the community and keep it going. I see a lot of the pros posting on their own blogs or Facebook instead. I’d love to see that stuff here as well, but that’s their call…
All good comments to ponder on. Thanks everyone.
-trent
What is the philosophy? Hating should be hard, loving should be easy? Sure there will be haters. That doesn’t bother me. What shakes me is being hated for no obvious reason. That’s just embarrassing.
I enjoy weekly feedback from a mentor who has been peeping through his viewfinder for 40 years. He has shot everything from presidents to Olympic athletes, commercial through fine art. Bless his heart, but his feedback is only encouraging. Some days that is helpful. I am often my harshest critic. Other days I want him to hate anything just so I have a mile-marker to pass. Yet, I perceive he is wiser than that.
The path to photographic improvement won’t be found in an Internet forum. It is out there shooting. A bit of encouragement from a respected photographer might be all someone needs to get them back out and try again. I don’t think the initiate needs a 500 word essay on their photograph. A simple gesture from the right expert could make all the difference. “More of this. -A. Guru” << The _real_ golden coin.
Getting a numerical rating totally eliminates the quality of the feedback if you don't know who gave it. Did a senior photographer give me 10 coins, or did joe-public-fanboi give me one? I don't know how the system works, but I think it would be nice if the senior photographers operated like editors. Perhaps they should be the only ones wielding the power of coinage. A privilege earned rather than glibly given to passer-by. It could still anonymous, but now we know only the anointed are voting. Then if I get an average score of '2' I can be properly shamed at having some how violated a fundamental tenet of photojournalism.
I think that has its own set of issues, but I thought I'd throw it out there to keep the conversation rolling.
I’d vote ‘nay’ on the idea of having some sort of elders voting position. I think having something like 20 dudes with voting power would really change the flat nature of the community. Like it says on the sidebar “This is a community of passionate photographers, students, and fans of photojournalism. You can join us.”
If I were just getting into photography I don’t think I’d want to join a site with the sort of potentially cliquish hierarchy that a junior/senior divide could nurture.
On the topic of coins, I’ve never minded getting a low number of coins. I figure it’s just part of the risk.
I think it’s important to note that coins aren’t a standard unit of measurement-which means anyone who uses the system is going to make up their own set of rules for it. It seems that this has lead to where we are now. Everyone has a slightly different system which they use to translate what certain amounts of coins “mean.”
The problem is we’re all speaking a slightly different language, assuming that we’re all on the same page.
The way I use coins is like this: If I like something I give it full coins. If I don’t, then I forget about it. I never worry about is-this-a-thirteen-or-a-fourteen-coin-post, because my system is a binary one. I either like it or I don’t.
Of course, if you want feedback, then it’s really up to you to produce that feedback. Best believe that when it’s portfolio submission time I’m going to personally reach out to some people here and ask that they give me a good hard critique. That’s one way to get feedback. If you want in on this site, there are ways to craft posts that lead to discussion.
1. Bring up an issue that’s relevant. (Case in point, this post!)
2. Ask specific questions.
3. Ask specific people for feedback.
4. Spend some time writing a really great post.
Anyway, those are my two coins. . . er, cents.